In this episode Paul Bullivant has a wide ranging discussion with Ben Jewell, the Northern Regional Manager for Holcim, getting his thoughts on the impending Landscaping season.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
- About his career which has been split between working for manufacturers and builders merchants
- How suppliers see builders merchants and builders merchants see suppliers
- Before finishing on a topic far away from the building materials industry, but close to both their hearts personally, the negative impact of social media (particularly Tik Tok) on children
Transcript
[00:00:00] Paul Bullivant (Host):
Hello and welcome back to the Howarth Timber and Building Supplies 1840 Podcast. I’m your host, Paul Bullivant, and I’m delighted to be joined today by Ben Jewell, who’s the Northern Regional Manager for Bradstone, a member of Holcim. Hi, Ben.
Today’s episode is entitled “Poacher Turned Gamekeeper”, which is quite cryptic, but when Ben introduces himself in a few moments, you’re going to hear from him that his history is half working for builders’ merchants and half working for manufacturers.
So I’ve asked Ben to come and join us today to talk about what his thoughts were of suppliers when he worked for a builders’ merchant, and what he now thinks of merchants now he works for a supplier. So it’s a real poison chalice, this, and I’m really interested to see how honest he’s going to be with his views from both sides.
Ben Jewell:
I’ll be very honest.
Paul:
I know you will, because I’ve got the questions to make you honest on this.
There’s two other things we’re going to talk about. We’re going to talk about landscaping, we’re going to talk about the changes that have gone on in Holcim just recently, we’re going to talk to him about what the forecast is for the landscaping season, and then to finish off we’re going to go severely off-piste for the first time ever in the 1840 Podcast, and we’re going to be talking about the impact of social media on young people.
And that’s a real passion of Ben’s, as I accidentally found out. But having found it out, it’s now become a mission of my own, to the point where Ben is now the second most hated male in my family after me, because my children now blame Ben for all my actions. So I hope you’re pleased with yourself, Ben.
Ben:
Yeah.
Paul:
And yeah, we’ll move on and come to that at the end. So let’s start off. Do you want to introduce yourself?
[00:01:43] Ben Jewell:
Yeah. So, I’m Ben Jewell. I’m the Northern Regional Manager for Bradstone, which is now a member of Holcim, which recently changed.
Holcim is a global business. It’s based in Switzerland, in 70 countries across the world, with about 70,000 employees as well. So we’re making some real changes in the UK.
What all that looks like to our customers is new email addresses, new sustainability credentials, a lot of new branding. Some of the old Aggregate Industries-branded brands are being removed as we speak. But what that looks like to our customers really is: you’ve still got the same people, you’ve still got the same products, but yeah, there are some real big changes for us internally with Holcim.
Paul:
So have Holcim owned Aggregate Industries for some time?
Ben:
Yes, they have, yeah. So what’s happening now really is the Holcim brand is removing the previous Aggregate Industries brand. So we’ll see Aggregate Industries move away over a period of time, slowly over time.
Obviously these things, for such a big business as Aggregate Industries, are going to take a number of years to figure out. We’ve got branding, logos, websites, and vehicles out on the road that all need to be sorted and rebranded. So it’s going to take a number of years. But certainly the initial impact into the market has already happened.
Paul:
Okay. Will we see any change to Bradstone? Because probably Bradstone’s the best-known face of Aggregate Industries in the builders’ merchant world.
Ben:
No. So there’s no plans initially to change anything with the Bradstone brand. There is a lot of brand equity in Bradstone, a lot of investment that’s happened over the last few years. So for me, there’s certainly no move internally for that, and we believe there’s too much brand equity in Bradstone to do anything with it.
Paul:
Yeah, okay. So that’s good. So we understand what’s happening with Holcim and Bradstone, but obviously the title of the episode is Poacher Turned Gamekeeper, so can you just run through your personal history so that we can understand how you’ve got a foot in both camps and can be branded as the poacher turned gamekeeper? That’s your brand, by the way, not mine.
[00:04:30] Ben:
But yeah, so I did 12 years at Travis Perkins. I was introduced to the industry by my uncle, who was in the tiling business at the time. He said, “Have you heard about Travis Perkins, a builders’ merchant?” I said, “What’s a builders’ merchant?” I had no idea whatsoever.
He gave me a flyer that was about the management training scheme. I applied for it and got the job. So I never really looked back.
I’ve done pretty much every role that there was available.
Paul:
Was that the training scheme where you’d start in a warehouse, yard?
Ben:
Yeah. So I did nine months in the yard, I did nine months in sales. I went around, I’m based in Shropshire, so I worked in every branch in Shropshire. I’ve worked in all those branches at Travis Perkins in Shropshire.
Eventually I made my way up into a management position and decided, actually, quite quickly, that I thought, I’d like to think, I hope people say, I’m pretty good at selling stuff. So I decided, rather than going down a managerial route, because I’ve never wanted to manage people...
Paul:
You never should have said that, because certainly managing people, you’ve got a team, because you’ve got a team today and have done for a very long time.
Ben:
But yeah, I really wanted to go out into selling. So I took a big leap out of branch straight into a key account manager position. I looked after £13 million worth of business straight away for TP. It was a big job, and I flew and spread my wings.
I did four years out on the road as a key account manager for TP, won awards in TP for those years that I was out on the road, so I did really, really well.
Paul:
When you said you started and got a management position, a branch manager’s position?
Ben:
No, I was assistant manager, but I was very close to being the branch manager. But I decided that it really wasn’t for me and that I wanted to get down the sales route.
Paul:
It’s funny that, because normally the route that we see is sales first, then assistant manager and manager. You’ve done it the other way round.
Ben:
Yeah.
Paul:
So what was it that turned you off management, and what was it that appealed to you that made sales appeal?
[00:06:35] Ben:
I’ll be honest, I think for me it was because I was still young. I think it was emotional intelligence more than anything. I think I was at that point where I was like, I want to go out and have some fun and go sell some stuff, and that for me was more exciting than being in the branch.
I ran alongside the branch manager at the time in a branch with 30 employees. It was a big old branch, one of our flagship branches, but certainly for me the bit I was enjoying the most was selling stuff.
So quite quickly I was like, no, I want to go down this route. And TP supported me and threw me straight in the deep end. I didn’t go out into an external rep’s role, I went straight into a key account manager role, which was a massive, massive jump and big shoes to fill as well from the previous incumbent. But yeah, had loads of fun for four years.
Then I went and followed a really inspirational sales leader I used to work for, Carl. I went to go and work for JELD-WEN. So they were a timber windows and doors manufacturer.
Paul:
Why? What was the switch then?
Ben:
The switch was literally to follow inspirational sales leadership. I wanted to learn more and more and more from the sales leader that I’d had at TP, and he moved, so I wanted to follow him because I wanted to learn more.
Paul:
It’s interesting that you talk about following people, because when we’re talking about builders’ merchanting we often talk about our customers: they trade with Ben, whatever branch, rather than dealing with Howarth Timber, for example. So it’s interesting you playing that out as well in your own room.
Ben:
Yeah, absolutely. It was a real big part of my career. I’d learned so much in that short space of time where I’d had that real sales leadership and coaching and developing and mentoring. Quite rightly, me and others around me were flourishing in the roles.
So when I found out that Carl was moving, I decided to follow him.
Paul:
What were the things that made his leadership inspirational?
Ben:
It was more around the challenge. It was more around constructive feedback and coaching. It was not only getting out into the field himself and coaching and developing his team, but also his team’s team. So there was some really good stuff happening and I just wanted to be part of that journey. Even if I just got snippets of it, I wanted to follow that and be part of it.
So I then went to work directly for Carl. So yeah, I was now merchant-manufacturer.
[00:09:20] Ben:
So I went and had some fun years at JELD-WEN. In manufacturing we then managed Covid, which was mental, everyone sitting in their room looking at their bedroom doors going, “I wonder where I placed that door?” So some of the most challenging years of my career so far were during Covid, managing a team through that as well, because I very quickly took on a team there.
So yeah, I went initially to be a national key account manager, then moved on into managing a team, and managing a team through probably one of the toughest times of our modern lives, which was interesting.
Then I went into underfloor heating as a national sales manager for an underfloor heating brand, linked back to TP. I was trying to move my way back into TP Group because I had a role that I was aiming for in TP, which was a sales director, initially sales manager and then sales director. That was my vision for the future.
Back last year they were sold, and then I moved back to Travis Perkins, green and gold, took on a sales team there, and I ran the best-performing sales team in the country for two years there. So some of my two most favourite years of my career to date so far were really instilling the stuff that had been instilled in me into my team, and all of my team flourishing. It was really, really great times.
Paul:
And then what happened?
Ben:
I then moved on to Bradstone.
Paul:
Yeah, then moved on to Bradstone, and that was just, not trying to overpush if there were personal issues around it, it was just for a fresh challenge there?
Ben:
So TP were going through restructuring, and unfortunately my position was no more.
Paul:
Okay, so it was your left because redundancy was no more?
Ben:
Yeah. So my position was no more, along with many other sales leaders across the country, so there were quite a few of us that were caught up in that. But we left on really good terms. TP are now a customer. I’ve still got many, many relationships in TP all over the years, but yeah, we’ve left on great terms.
But I was blown away by some of the investment that was going to be happening in the Bradstone brand. So when I was job searching, I met with Neil, my boss now, and Neil pitched to me what was happening with Bradstone and the journey we were going on, and quite rightly I’ve seen that journey come into fruition.
Paul:
Did you know at that point about the Holcim change eventually?
Ben:
No, but I knew about all the brand change, which anyone that’s been close to the Bradstone brand over the years has seen , the huge investment that’s gone through the Bradstone brand with a new website and new brochure, all these things that Neil was telling me about, and it has all come to fruition in the last year. So I’ve had a really exciting year at Bradstone.
Paul:
You’ve been at Bradstone for a year?
Ben:
A year, yeah. Just over a year.
[00:13:10] Paul:
Right, so I think in that introduction you have properly established your credentials as able to talk as a merchant and as a manufacturer, and I’m really looking forward in a few minutes to talk to you about how you saw the other one when you were in it.
And I should just caveat this to anybody who’s listening, be you merchant, be you supplier: Ben has been quite reticent about this, saying, “Oh, I don’t know, can I be on this?” So I’ve really had to push him to do it, so I thank you for that. And I’m sure everybody will take it in the right spirit, because the aim of it is to help both, it’s to help merchants be better and it’s to help suppliers be better, and it saves me having to say it and me putting my foot in it. You can put your foot in it, so it seems like a really good deal.
So before we move on to that, we can’t have you coming in, working for Holcim, Bradstone, a member of the Holcim Group, yeah, I’ve written it down, I’m trying my best to get the branding right, I know how important branding is for all you marketeers out there.
So let’s just talk a little bit about landscaping. What are the forecasts for the landscaping season this year?
[00:14:11] Ben:
So I mean for us, what we’re seeing is a really challenging start to the season. There’s a lot of the CMA feedback we’re getting that it’s been a slow start. Weather was challenging, demand seems a little flat.
However, I think as ever, we’ve got to have the optimism to grow and drive the season forward. So we are carrying on having really positive conversations with customers. We are focused on delivery. We are focused on driving volumes alongside our customers and really trying to make a difference.
But it has been a challenging start. And as we all know in merchanting, it is challenging times at the moment. But I think for us, we’ve still got a load of positivity around the season and driving the season forward.
Paul:
Have you got a market growth figure in mind that you could share?
Ben:
No.
Paul:
Okay, that’s fair enough. I only ask because a lot of merchants are doing forecasting, particularly the ones who run from April through to March. So that whole conversation that we’re having in our business around, “You know, it’s going to be another difficult year, is the growth volume, is it price inflation, where are you going to get your growth?” It’s just really interesting to us. But you see another tough year.
Ben:
Yeah, no magic answers to it, just no magic answers. I think some of the things we have seen is there’s still quite considerable demand from our shorter installers. So if I was to give any advice to people watching in merchanting, it’s stay really close to your installers, because there does seem to be a group of customers out there that are willing to be invested in their gardens.
We’ve got some research that we’ve done, prior to the season, around that. And I believe the research was something along the lines of 80% of people over the next three years say they’re going to do something with their gardens and invest in their gardens. And it was a large catchment of consumers as well.
So there is demand out there, but for us in this industry and for you guys as merchants, it’s about how you capture that. So my advice out there is stay close to your installers, the people that are putting these products in, ask the right questions, and find out what they’re doing, what they’re doing now, what they’re doing next, and get the details you need and get an inquiry.
So again, it’s a lot like we’re talking about within our business, there’s been no magic this year. Get the basics right: good service, positivity, proactivity, stay close. It’s going to be tough, but we’ve got to stay positive.
[00:17:10] Paul:
Yeah, like you say, you’ve got to do the basics right. Are there any trends in terms of product? For example, how are you seeing porcelain this year?
Ben:
Yeah, so porcelain is still going really strong, as well as stone. So Indian sandstone’s still going strong as well. We have over the years seen a decline in concrete, which is the core of our business. So we have seen a decline in those decorative concrete ranges and a drive towards porcelain, for all the benefits that porcelain has.
The core of our business, 70% of our business, is still concrete, so there’s still a huge amount of concrete volumes that we’re going through. So for me, yes, we are seeing that drive in porcelain coming through, but we’ve still got to focus on our core market too, which is 70% of the concrete volumes that are going through.
Paul:
And that concrete volume is not what you would call decorative though, is it?
Ben:
There’s decorative mixed in with flag and kerb and commercial projects and things like that. So it’s the whole range.
Paul:
Where’s the growth area in decorative concrete then? Because as a merchant, we’re just conditioned now when it comes to gardens and decorative to go natural stone, porcelain. Other than a cheap slab, concrete in terms of decorative is not really on our agendas. Are we missing a trick?
Ben:
Yeah. So for me, I think there’s the, again, the data that we had was saying that there was going to be 80% of people were going to do something in their garden, and 35% of people are going to redo their driveway.
So I believe there’s an area to focus that we can have as a business, as well as our customers can, around CBP, around driveway products. And there’s some serious conversations to be had with customers around, if they’re having a tarmac drive for example, how can you sell the benefits of having a block-paved drive instead? What’s the cost? Is there a cost saving? It’s about working out ways to windle yourself in to get an inquiry.
I certainly see there are some areas of growth there. Other areas of growth, we’ve just launched a new Piccolo range, which is a slim-set paviour to try and grasp that demand. So I think for me that would be an area that I would probably convince people to focus on. But again, think a little bit bigger, ask better questions, to try and get that. Maybe if it’s the tarmac drive, maybe you convince someone to have it block paved instead.
Paul:
Okay. This might be too broad a question. What are the good questions you wish more merchants would ask?
[00:20:13] Ben:
So again, if we’re going to go slightly into my history with merchanting, it’s all about asking the right questions, as it is with any sales role.
I encouraged my branches when I was a regional manager, and the branches that were aligned to me, I encouraged all my branches and all my team about “now and next.” I did touch on it a little bit earlier, and for me it’s about asking your customers: what’s on now, what’s next? Get an understanding of what they’re doing.
Because what you’ll find most of the time is there’ll be a great conversation happening on the counter, little bit of banter and all that, but actually the customer will probably come in, ask for what he wants, get what he wants, and get out of there. What value are you adding? And what are you understanding about that customer’s business and the wider picture?
For me it’s about: what are you doing now, what are you doing next? Anyone can ask those two questions.
Paul:
Good advice then. I’ve not heard of that term, now and next, but obviously you know the concept. That’s good, I like that.
Right, final part on landscaping then. You did a presentation to our Timber when we did our landscaping launch day, and it was really interesting because you gave, was it five trends for the year? Which is a different way of looking at things. We look at things as stone and porcelain, but the consumer doesn’t look at it as stone and porcelain, they look at it as their garden, their living space, what they’re going to do with it.
If I were to read them out one at a time to you, could you give a quick short précis on each of them? So the five trends you mentioned to us was:
The Cottage Garden.
Ben:
Yeah, so Cottage Garden is traditional, warm-feeling, warm colours, old-worldy sort of style houses, that sort of thing. So that’s a Cottage Garden.
Paul:
And these are clearly all very marketing terms. Well done, marketers like these. I’m assuming these are driven by customer research?
Ben:
Yes, of course, yeah.
Paul:
Yeah, because I can’t imagine the trade coming and asking for an edible garden. So let’s move to Edible Garden.
Ben:
Edible Garden is, as it says on the tin, a garden that is edible. So it’s for people that are looking to grow their own vegetables, they’re growing their own herbs, and it’s about what products are going to align with that.
Paul:
I’m assuming that’s around beds and planters?
Ben:
Yeah, absolutely.
Paul:
The Indoor Outdoor Garden.
Ben:
Yes. So indoor outdoor started with Covid. This is really about bringing the two spaces together, rather than creating two separate spaces. It’s more about bringing the two together.
Paul:
So that would be like having the same porcelain on the patio as you’ve got in your conservatory, it all just runs through?
Ben:
Or having open access from indoor to out and bringing it through.
Paul:
Okay. And in fact bringing indoor out as well, so that’s kitchens in the garden, seating...
Ben:
Yeah, seating, exactly.
Paul:
Okay. Play Garden.
Ben:
Play Garden is all about the kids. So it’s making sure that you’ve got a space that’s right for the family, a space that’s right for the kids too, and a safe place for the kids.
Paul:
Okay. And then final one, A Greener Garden.
Ben:
Yeah. So Greener Garden is all about the green spaces, utilising green spaces, and as well as that, an opportunity for greener products there as well for people that have got a focus on sustainability and the environment.
[00:23:54] Paul:
What kind of products sit in that portfolio for you?
Ben:
So yeah, we’ve got our Eco Evolved products there, but actually a lot of our products are lower in carbon and have got good sustainability credentials, obviously including porcelain and sandstone, which obviously comes from the other part of the world.
Paul:
I’m assuming being part of a massive PLC then there’s a lot of focus on sustainability.
Ben:
Yeah, it’s one of Holcim’s strengths. So there’s a real sustainability lens from Holcim. We’ve got a lot of products already in that category, but there’ll be a lot of focus over the coming years on that.
And me personally, this is my personal opinion, I personally see a resurgence in concrete coming over the years, but that will have to be driven by legislation, I think.
What I do feel is that we as consumers in the UK within the landscaping industry, and I mean consumers as in not the merchants, I mean the actual consumers, we know there’s a big focus. We’re allowing porcelain and sandstone to be coming halfway across the world and being brought into the UK when we’ve got products that can be made really high quality in the UK, more sustainably, better for the environment.
And one of the key things that I’ve seen happen last year, with the RHS shows, the flower shows, every time I was at one of their events I had someone asking me about the sustainability credentials of the product that was laid in front of me. And half the time that was a porcelain where I’d have to explain that it was from the other side of the world. Half of the time I could explain that it was a product that was manufactured in Hulland Ward in Derbyshire, and the aggregates came 30 minutes down the road.
Paul:
Could you see a time then in, say, 10 years where we’re not laying porcelain and natural stone?
Ben:
Don’t think so. I think there’s always going to be a market for it, and that market’s come and it’s strong, and there’s loads of benefits versus concrete, and again porcelain versus sandstone has benefits too.
But I do see a resurgence of concrete coming. But I think that’s going to have to be legislation-led. So it’s going to be the overall market aligning to it, housebuilders aligning to it. For me, it’s got to come at some point, and I believe there is going to be a resurgence.
Paul:
Okay. I meant to ask this a little bit earlier, how’s the Red Sea at the moment for availability?
Ben:
Yeah, so at the moment we’re not seeing too many issues. Price has stabilised a little bit. We have got healthy stocks on the ground. Us as Bradstone, we’ve got no issues with stock availability whatsoever. We’ve got plenty of stock on the ground, plenty of porcelain, plenty of sandstone.
Paul:
And exactly the same for all, we’re not hearing any more talk at the minute about terrorism and ships being attacked? Everything’s quieted down?
Ben:
Yeah, but who knows? As we all know, if anyone’s attached to landscaping, one slight change in some environment somewhere across the world, stray missile, and it can all be struggling.
[00:27:33] Paul:
Great. Right, I think we’ve done landscaping. So let’s move on to the key point of today: your views on when you were a merchant, what you thought suppliers were like, and now you’re a supplier, what you think merchants are like. And we do this with all positive intent to help both parties.
So be honest, be straight. I’m going to give my views too. It’s not aimed at anybody, we’re not going to name names.
Ben:
I was going to drop in a few, but we’ll keep away from that.
Paul:
So it’s done with good intent, slightly tongue in cheek, but it’s just yours and my view on how both parties can help each other.
Okay, so as a merchant, how did you see suppliers?
Ben:
So I’ll give you two views if you don’t mind.
So when I was in branch, I struggled. We would often have people turning up without an appointment. We were a really busy branch. We had some supplier external representatives that would come in, drop off a brochure, say hello, jump back in the car. We had some really strong relationships, so I had a mixed bag. But I was young, and a lot of the time I was just having fun with these people that were coming in. They’d drop a brochure and yeah, I might take what they’ve got to say and learn from it, or I might not and just carry on. So that was one experience.
The other experience I had was as a regional sales manager within TP, running a team. I looked after £60 million worth of business. So the RSMs at TP were influential people. I had some really strong relationships with suppliers, and then also ones that were not so strong.
But my biggest frustration was that I had a team, a really proactive sales team, that I never felt the suppliers really grasped hold of. And what I mean by that is the suppliers would never really see the true value of a really strong relationship, and would never sort of grasp the opportunity that was in front of them.
To put it into perspective, you have £60 million sitting with me. My key account manager would have £13 million, and so on and so forth, and that would rain down to the ASRs and the territory managers. So these guys had lots of business that they were doing in their area.
I just never saw the engagement level that I wished, and like I say, this isn’t all suppliers, but overall there were certainly a good couple of suppliers out there, some that are now competitors, that were strong in those areas. But I just never saw that they saw the size of the opportunity there, and I found that frustrating.
We often had meetings, myself and the regional director at the time, where we had some great engagement conversations. People would come in that were really prepared and have a great presentation, talk through a load of added-value stuff. But then we also had people that would turn up and pull up some numbers and talk through the performance, and I’m sitting there going, “Well, I already know what this is performing like, you already know what this is performing like, what are we going to do together to drive business?”
And that was a frustrating thing for me. It’s almost like it was a tick-box, and it’s like: for me, you’ve got to synergise those two relationships together and then drive growth together or else it’s pointless.
So that was my frustration as an RSM. I had a really, really strong team, really, really engaged team, that could go out and do some real numbers, and supplier disconnect. I was thinking, Christ, if I could put that really strong supplier engagement, if you flipped that on its head , and went, I could put that really strong team in a supplier or a manufacturer with that team and put those two together, you’re unstoppable.
Paul:
Yeah, you’re unstoppable.
Ben:
But I’ve never really seen that.
[00:32:24] Paul:
So to reflect that back then, as a merchant you had a mix of suppliers, some good, but the majority average, and there were a lot of missed opportunities.
And I’d echo, as a merchant, I’ve only done merchanting, I would absolutely reflect that. We cry out for suppliers who grab us and want to drive things with us, on the basis that we’ve probably got five or six hundred suppliers. We have a lot of suppliers going about, and our category managers and our branch teams are always busy on all kinds of things.
So we gravitate to the ones that are either really business-critical to us because of volume, or to the ones who give to you in a positive and proactive way. So I fully echo that mix of things there.
So if suppliers are listening to us, we’re crying out to be grabbed and dragged, you know, dragged along kicking and screaming because there’s an opportunity right here. That’s my selling pitch to every supplier listening to this: come and grab us, come and be positive, come and be at the top of our list, people banging on the door.
So that’s interesting. So now, how are you seeing merchants, knowing what you know of suppliers as a merchant?
Ben:
So just to start with, one of my big passions is actually to try and get what I just said around getting that blend right.
So for me now, on the other side, I’m trying to build a really strong team that’s out there in the face of the customer, really driving to win, really trying to synergise with their customers, go out and see their customers’ customers as such, go out and see developers, go out and see installers, really drive business together.
But then I need to find the other team, i.e. my old team, I need to find that energy and drive from the merchants.
And to give some inside insight into the things that happen, we’ve got supplier and merchant joint days out, and we get cancellation same day. This has happened, I could pull off in the last two weeks five or six times that this has happened when we book these days.
Paul:
Sorry to interrupt, do you think you’re judging, when you judge, based on your experience of your team when you were at TP? Is that a fair judgment, or did you just have a mega team at that point?
Ben:
I don’t know. It’s a really good question. I think I did have a good team, and it took a while to build, but we did have a very good team.
I think for me, what my experience was, and it often is, I fell into sales. A lot of people that are in the sales arena fall into sales. I fell into sales myself. So one of my biggest frustrations that I see personally is that to be a good sales team, you have to have a sales leader that is willing to be in the coalface coaching and developing their people in the field.
So I think that is often where the fall-down is. Running a sales team is a busy job. You’ve got numbers to hit, you’ve got people that need managing, people that need coaching, and often that coaching development piece just falls away a little bit.
Often you find as a sales leader too that you’ll be taken in to sort something out or sort a meeting out, rather than, the lovely bit is where you want to go out with your team and experience what that meeting’s like, and then give them constructive feedback off the back of it.
So I think, yeah, going back to your question, yeah, I might be being a bit too critical. But for me, I’ll go back to what I said before: there’s such a huge opportunity for the two teams to synergise together, and it’s frustrating when it doesn’t happen, because I know firsthand that if you can get a manufacturing sales team or a supplier sales team and a merchant sales team punching and synergised together, the opportunity’s around.
[00:37:27] Paul:
So when I was kind of supporting your view of suppliers, and I was saying it can be a little bit underwhelming what we get back, do you now think, now you’re looking at it through a supplier’s eyes, are you at times underwhelmed with what you get from merchants in terms of focus and drive and skills?
Ben:
Yes is the answer. But I know the reasons why.
And again, from being there and doing it myself, I know that merchants are pulled pillar to post. I know that they are busy places. I know that time is short. So all of that , so the answer is yes. However, I know the reasons why.
So for me it’s about how a supplier can create enough value to get their attention, grab that attention, and then go together.
Paul:
Yeah, and that’s the hard bit.
Ben:
And that’s the hard bit.
Paul:
And that’s interesting because my role as Commercial Director is to work in procurement, and when we meet suppliers with category managers, we say we need you, Mr Supplier, to keep your brand in front of us, to keep us focused on you, because if we’re not careful, once you’ve left this room, you’ve perhaps got a week of our attention while we do what we say we’re going to do, and then we’re going to move on to the next thing. And if you don’t keep it in front of us over time, you’re just going to gradually fall down the list and we lose attention.
Ben:
I think that’s it. A great point you made about yes, you think merchants can be underwhelming, but you get it.
Paul:
I get it, 100%.
Ben:
So that’s good that you see that, because you are right. Our guys on the road have got customers, they’ve got branches, they’ve got lots of suppliers, lots of stuff to do. It is difficult.
Paul:
How do we make the best of it for both of us?
Ben:
I think for me it’s about, one thing that I’ve been focused on with my team is really just trying to get the information they need and then to lead and run with it. And if that means dragging someone along on the journey, then that means dragging someone along the journey. But if that person’s also willing to come, then you win, we’re going to win together.
So often the team have been sitting down and having a chat about the ledger: right, which customers can I go focus on for you? What could I help you with?
Paul:
How do you go about finding that kind of person? Because that’s the magic answer to the magic question, isn’t it? How do you find that person who’s got that drive and that mindset of not letting the knock-backs of somebody cancelling on you the day before knock your confidence and knock your drive?
Ben:
It’s tough. You’ve got to have resilience, haven’t you? Ultimately, you’ve got to have resilience. If you’re going to get, you are going to constantly get knock-back in these roles, and times are changing quite quickly, and the landscape is ever-changing. So you’ve got to be resilient.
You’ve also got to have the adaptability as well, to change quickly, because if you don’t adapt, you won’t win. So it’s hard trying to find that. But I think for me it’s about the personality, it’s about the resilience, it’s about understanding what makes those people tick, and then driving that person forward and to go and have those quality conversations, and to keep going.
Because with that resilience, if you’re going to get a knock-back, okay, so if that person’s knocked you back, are they going to knock you back again? If they do knock you back again, okay, maybe try once more. If they do, okay right, to the next one, find the next.
Paul:
So resilience is a great trait then, across anything that any of us do in any work. Have you got another trait or two that you think is critical to finding that kind of salesperson that you’ve described?
Ben:
Yes. So I mentioned personality before. Whenever I talk about salespeople, personality and having the right personality is big for me.
One thing that gets thrown in, and I’m going to say it, is people say, “People buy from people.” Well, believe it or not, that’s not the case. People buy with emotion. People actually buy from the way they are made to feel, rather than from the actual person.
So “people buy from people”, in my opinion, again, my opinion only, but that’s been drummed into me over the years, it’s a load of rubbish. They buy with emotion. They buy because of how that person actually makes them feel.
Paul:
I like this. Yeah, I wasn’t expecting a psychology lesson when we started.
Ben:
So yeah, it’s about how they make them feel. So if you’ve got the right personality, and you can understand someone else’s personality and someone else’s emotion, and then you find out how to make them tick and how to sell to them, then that’s, for me, a little bit more complex than just saying, yeah, people buy from people.
[00:42:44] Paul:
Right, I’m going to pivot us here at this point, because I think I can keep asking you questions about what do you think of merchants and vice versa and you’re probably going to get killed anyway for this or something. I think we’ve done a reasonable job here. We’re both underwhelming at times.
Ben:
Yeah.
Paul:
And the bizarre thing is, we both want the same thing.
Ben:
Yeah.
Paul:
So why there’s a disconnect when we both want the same thing is a serious question to everybody listening to this. Because we all want to sell more, we’ve all got expensive sales teams, and if they work together and if we have better relationships, we would inevitably win-win.
So we’re going to stop there on the merchant-supplier, supplier-merchant. We’re both a little bit underwhelming. We’ve both got things to do. We’re going to move on to our final phase of our conversation around social media.
So very quickly, I met with Ben six or eight weeks ago, and we were just knit-nattering before we started, and I had a quick rant about the behaviour of my youngest son that I was putting down to too much phone use. You gave me the most bizarre look, kind of started shaking your head, and I went, “Why are you looking at me like that?” and you said, “Don’t get me started on phones and social media.”
Well, what a most ridiculous thing to say, because as soon as you say to somebody, “Don’t talk to me about it,” the first thing you’re going to do is go, tell us all about it.
So we then had an hour on social media, the influence on young people of TikTok, of Snapchat, of all those things, which has sent me on a personal rabbit hole, which has led to changes in our household with my kids. Very difficult, as you’d said to me, to make change. But when you start looking and researching, it’s incredibly scary what you see and read and hear, and the impact of change has blown my socks off. I can’t believe the change that’s occurred having taken TikTok away from one of my children.
You’re very passionate about it. You’ve had some personal issues with it in your family, which I don’t want to go into today because that is personal to you, and you were kind enough to share to me, but that’s for you.
You know a lot about it. The stuff you’ve told me has really helped me. You told me to read a book called The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, or however you pronounce it, which is a really good book, and it’s terrifying to any parent who’s listening to this.
The book talks about the impact of social media on children. It talks about taking away a childhood that anybody kind of 30, 35 plus would have lived, and instead of developing social skills and the like, and having to deal with problems and failure and not building resilience, living a life on the screen is really impacting children and damaging them.
And I’m going a long way round the houses, but I’m now coming back to it, you’ve just been talking to me about your thoughts on how people sell well, about people, about relationships. I love that thing you said about people buy from people, they don’t buy from people, they buy on emotion. So you’ve talked about personality, all emotion, all the things that social media and children is being sapped away as we speak every time they open TikTok on their phone.
I have rambled, but can you just give me your thoughts on social media, particularly TikTok and Snapchat, the impact that you’ve seen , without going into detail, you don’t need to cover that , and just share it, because it’s been such a journey of discovery for me that I think it should be shared, because I think it’s something we don’t talk about.
One thing that The Anxious Generation talks about: we overprotect offline, we underprotect online.
Ben:
Correct. In fact, we don’t protect at all online, most people don’t.
[00:47:20] Paul:
And I just want to share it whilst we’re doing this, because we’ve done this podcast now, this is I think our twelfth episode , we’ve done a lot of stuff on builders’ merchanting, but I think we’ve now earned the right a bit to go a little bit off and kind of recognise the fact that everybody listening to us, whilst they’re part of the building materials industry, we’re also human beings.
Ben:
Absolutely.
Paul:
We’re also people, we’ve all got kids, and actually the fact that our salespeople need more personality, more emotion, more ability to speak to people, at the same time as TikTok and social media is sapping all of those skills away, we’ve got a skills shortage heading down the line very, very quickly. Your thoughts?
Ben:
So I think, yeah, quite rightly as you mentioned, I’ve had lots of challenges with social media. I read a lot, in fact I don’t read a lot, sorry, I should say I listen a lot. I drive a lot for a living, I listen a lot. I was after finding out more about how I could adjust and do things differently, so this book came up.
Then quite funny, a few weeks ago, we both found out that it had gone on to The High Performance Podcast as well, so bringing it right to the forefront. Whereas this book had only got a few hundred reviews at the time, it’s starting to maybe come into the forefront.
So what I see is a generation that has potentially got some serious challenges ahead. And yeah, you’re quite right, I’ve mentioned emotion, I’ve mentioned personality, emotional intelligence is really important. And for how I see this as a journey into what our future sales teams could look like, I see increased anxiety, increased challenges around mental health, all down to a screen-based life.
You could probably guess that I’m not a fan of social media. So I have LinkedIn for work purposes only, and I don’t have any other form of social media. Only up until recently I’ve gone on to WhatsApp, so yeah, I’m pretty strong against it. And it’s because I see the damage that is being caused, and when you actually start looking into the figures, it’s scary.
So what I’m seeing is a young generation being brought up with increased problems with anxiety, increased problems with mental health, games that are open to abuse, and some real scary stuff going on in the online world. So that for me is a major concern as people are coming through into my profession.
I’m really proud of my profession as being a salesperson. I’m concerned that we’re going to have skills coming through where we’ve got people that haven’t got those finer skills, the tone to deliver a good conversation, the right behaviour, eye contact, all those things that are really important to a salesperson, to a sales process. How to understand the person that’s sitting opposite you, if you’re stuck on your phone 24/7, you’re stuck on social media, living a life online, how are you going to engage in a conversation and be able to sell to someone?
So for me, those are the bits I’m thinking not only of my personal challenge, I’m thinking future generations in my profession. I think they’re going to have some real challenges.
Paul:
You’ve got two young children, and one older. What’s your stance with the use of phones and social media for your two younger children? How old are they?
Ben:
So I’ve got Lily, who’s 10, and I’ve got Mila, who’s 6, and then I’ve got Bethany, who’s older, who’s 17.
Paul:
Okay. So with the two younger ones, what’s going to be your outlook?
[00:51:51] Ben:
So all content is restricted. Social media is restricted. They both have a tablet each, which they get 45 minutes a day on. If you look into the recommended screen time, they get recommended screen time.
We don’t have any games consoles in the household. We are very lucky and very fortunate to have two ponies, so they spend a lot of time outdoors, which takes up their day, so they don’t even think about going on a games console anyway because they just want to go and spend time with the ponies. So we are lucky there.
But yeah, my approach with them is Lily has just had her smartphone ready for secondary school. Again, that is fully restricted, contacts restricted. She can only speak to people that are signed off by Mum and Dad. No one else can contact her. She’s got restricted access to the internet, no gaming apps, no nothing. So screen time is completely reduced. So if she has a phone, that will call and text her grandparents and her mum and dad, and that is it.
And as the book suggests, over time, and the presentation I sent you over time, you’re supposed to slowly release those restrictions to allow them to have basically more risk in the online world.
So that’s the way I’ve approached it. It is completely way out there if you speak to most parents. That’s the way I’ve played it because of lived experiences, and I believe by doing that I’m going to protect them moving forward.
But the difference is, after reading The Anxious Generation, I do the really, really , like I say, way left-field, way right-field probably, restrictions online, but I send Lily down to the shop on her own to go and get a couple of bits of groceries for us, and I let her go out and play with her friends, and I let her go and do things down the horse on her own and experience things in the outdoors on her own. And that’s only by reading the book really and starting to reflect on that.
But like I said, for me it’s really important that we all start talking about it a little bit more, because the interesting bit is very similar to the conversation that me and you have had: when you start talking about it, you have someone grasp on to you and go, “I’m experiencing exactly the same problem, how, what, where, why, how?”
And it’s really interesting when you start opening up. I’m quite open with the things that have happened and the learnings that I’ve had, but I really needed someone, and that’s why I went to the books, I really needed someone to guide me in the right direction.
[00:54:29] Paul:
I hope people listening to this are not taking this as preaching from the both of us. Very not the case. But I wanted to bring it into the conversation because of the journey I’ve been on, because of accidentally talking to you.
I would have classed myself as pretty tech and social-media savvy, but talking to you has given me a total about-face, to the point where on Sunday this weekend I took TikTok off the phones of both of my children, and to do it I had to take Twitter, which is the only social media I followed, I’ve taken that off my phone, and my kids couldn’t believe that I was willing to take Twitter off my phone for them to take TikTok off.
And it’s only three days since that’s happened, but in my youngest, which was the one that I’d had some problems with, that started the conversation off with you already, I can see changes in his behaviours now. Whether it’s coincidence or fluke, proof will be in the pudding over the coming days, but it’s really made a mark on me, the difference that’s come from him.
So I wanted to bring this up and talk to you because you led the conversation. I want to thank you for sharing, because you were very honest, very straight in what you shared with me. You shared stuff with me that you didn’t have to because it was very personal and not nice, and I thank you for that, because if I’d not heard it I’d have probably dismissed it.
The Anxious Generation book is excellent. We will post the name of it in the show notes, and if anybody’s got any concerns about their children and what’s happening, the book is very worth listening to, reading, or audio-booking. And equally, the author Jonathan Haidt was on The High Performance Podcast a few weeks ago. It’s an hour’s podcast episode, but it’s brilliant. It really does summarise the book. If you don’t like reading, you don’t need to listen to a full book, that’s worth looking at.
And again, if we’re allowed to put that into the show notes, I’ll just scare you all to finish very quickly. You very kindly sent me a presentation that you’d got from a company called EduThing, who are an IT services for education business. I’m assuming the presentation was something that’s aimed at schools and aimed to go to parents?
Ben:
Yeah, that’s why I got it, from the school.
Paul:
There’s some quite shocking stuff in there and I’ll flick through this. A couple of bullet points around 8 to 12-year-olds: 77% of 8 to 12-year-olds say their parents can’t see what they’re doing online, and 83% can use devices in their bedrooms, which is a problem because they can do what they want without any monitoring. 38% of 8 to 12-year-olds have gamed with strangers online. 65% were contacted by a stranger during an online game, and 55% of 8 to 12-year-olds did not tell a parent or adult when bothered by harmful content or unsolicited contact.
When it comes to teens, it’s even more scary. In a class of 15-year-olds, 75% had seen a beheading video. 79% of teens have seen violent porn before they’re 18, and half of girls 16-plus have been sent explicit content of someone they know.
Ben:
Yeah, so it’s terrible stuff.
Paul:
So if any of you out there are still listening to us and you have concerns, start looking into it. Have a look at The Anxious Generation. We’ll post it. And good luck with it. Thank you for sharing that.
Ben:
No worries.
[00:58:19] Paul:
I’m going to finish off with our usual quick-fire questions. So back to serious building materials.
First question is favourite and most difficult part of your job.
Ben:
Well, favourite is going to be sell, sell, sell, sell, sell.
Paul:
Yeah, selling.
Ben:
But I suppose actually the most favourite part of my job now is coaching and developing a team to get them to sell, sell, sell, sell.
Paul:
That’s excellent. I get more value out of that now. Oh, you’re getting old, aren’t you? When you get more value out of other people’s success than your own. Oh Ben, what have you become?
Difficult part of your job?
Ben:
I think for me, right now, it’s market. It’s market. I would love it to be a little bit more buoyant so we could all go out and have a bit more fun.
Paul:
Thank you. Best piece of advice you’ve ever been given?
Ben:
I’m not sure I could repeat it.
Paul:
Please do. Moderate it.
Ben:
Just... oh, the language must be horrific. I can’t say it. It’s not even repeatable.
Paul:
Right, well I’m interested in that after we turn the cameras off. The second-best piece of advice you’ve ever been given?
Ben:
I think I was told, when I started my career, just to keep driving, and just to keep moving forward. I always had that sort of mantra: keep driving, keep going forward, and just keep doing what you can do. And I’ve always followed that mantra.
Paul:
And one final one. It’s the big one. Which do you prefer, merchant or supplier?
Ben:
Oh, both.
Paul:
What a cop out, but what a good way of not alienating 50% of what you do.
Ben, thank you for the time. That’s been superb. I’ve really enjoyed talking to you.
Ben:
Vice versa.
Paul:
To our audience, thank you for listening. I hope you found it interesting. Don’t let social media freak you out. If you’ve liked what you’ve seen, like and subscribe, leave us a review, it’d be much appreciated, and if you could share the podcast with somebody else who you think might be interested, that would be amazing.
So thank you all for listening, we’ll see you again in the future. Bye-bye.
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