Part 1 of our International Women's Day episodes, Assistant Branch Managers Ashley Rice & Alice Stafford talk about what it's really like to be a woman working in a male dominated industry.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
- The reality of working somewhere where the customers and colleagues are predominantly male
- Their career paths into merchanting
- About customer interactions and gender bias they have faced
- Howarth Timber initiatives and progress
Transcript
0:00 | Danielle Boyle:
Welcome to today’s episode of Howarth Timber and Building Supplies 1840 podcast. You may be wondering and thinking that, “Paul, it’s a little bit different today.” Maybe he spent a bit longer in the makeup room than normal!
But Paul has kindly passed me the hot seat for today. I’m Danielle Boyle, the Social and Communications Manager here at Howarth.
Today’s episode is around women in merchanting, so why not have a female host?
International Women’s Day is a recognised event which happens on the 8th of March each year, and as a business we would like to recognise and celebrate the women within Howarth.
So today I’m joined by two Assistant Branch Managers, Alice and Ashley, and the topics of conversation are going to be around what it’s like to be a woman working in such a male dominated industry, the good and the bad.
So welcome, ladies.
0:44 | Alice:
Thank you.
0:45 | Ashley:
Thank you for having us.
0:47 | Danielle Boyle:
Do you just want to introduce yourselves?
Ashley, what do you do, and how long have you been here?
0:52 | Ashley:
I’m Ashley. I’m the Assistant Branch Manager at the Wakefield branch. I’ve worked for the company for just short of four years.
0:59 | Danielle Boyle:
Alice?
1:01 | Alice:
Hi, I’m Alice. I’m the Assistant Branch Manager at the Derby branch. I’ve been there for coming up to nine years.
1:07 | Danielle Boyle:
Wow, so quite a few years between you.
1:10 | Alice:
Yeah.
1:11 | Danielle Boyle:
And you were admin before this role?
1:13 | Alice:
Yes.
1:14 | Danielle Boyle:
So you’re recently Assistant Branch Manager, right?
1:16 | Alice:
Yeah.
1:17 | Danielle Boyle:
How long has that been?
1:19 | Alice:
Just before Christmas. It’s very recent.
1:22 | Danielle Boyle:
Well, I’ve been to Derby, you deserve it.
And Ashley, you’ve been in the business four years but not in Wakefield the whole time?
1:27 | Ashley:
No. I started off on the counter in the Oldham branch, and then I moved into Internal Sales, and then I moved up to Wakefield a year ago.
1:35 | Danielle Boyle:
Okay.
So obviously the building industry is a funny old industry, a funny old sector, especially being a woman.
How did both of you get into the building sector?
1:44 | Ashley:
So I started in B&Q when I was 16, as a part-time job to get me through college.
I worked on the checkouts there for about a year and a half, before I moved into the TradePoint section. I worked with a couple of other Howarth colleagues there.
I spent just short of 15 years there in the building side before I moved over.
2:05 | Danielle Boyle:
Do you find TradePoint to be a lot different to a builder’s merchant?
2:09 | Ashley:
Yeah, it is very different.
It was tailored more to trade customers in the past. It’s changed slightly now, it’s a bit more retail, but we used to work with Howarth, so we would contact Howarth, for example Oldham, and they would do our deliveries on our behalf.
So there were a lot of similarities, even though there are some big differences as well.
2:34 | Danielle Boyle:
Yeah, because what I remember of TradePoint is my dad, as a tradesperson, saying it was just to get discount, and get through the exit quicker.
You do a different exit, don’t you? Different entrance.
What about yourself, Alice?
2:48 | Alice:
It was just pure luck.
I was on my journey to leave. My oldest had just gone back to school and gone to nursery, and I needed a job, and it was 10 till 2, so it fit.
3:00 | Danielle Boyle:
What did you do before Howarth?
3:02 | Alice:
I’ve always been in accounts slash admin.
Straight from school. While I was at school I worked in a wedding shop on a Saturday, it was a brilliant job.
And I didn’t know what I wanted to do when I was older. I still don’t know what I want to do!
So I got an admin job as a receptionist. I was there about five years, and by the end of it I ended up running the accounting department. It was only small, but it got bought out and moved to Warrington, so I moved with them temporarily.
Then I got a job being a Commercial Assistant at a big civils company based back in Derby, and they were connecting the inner ring road. That was my first time being in a male dominated industry. At the time I was the only woman, I was in the middle of site in a porta-cabin. It was brilliant. It was fun.
But I was there for three years, and then that job finished and they moved on again. So I was looking for a job, and I ended up working for another Derby-based company as a Commercial Assistant, and then I went to Howarth from there.
4:06 | Danielle Boyle:
Okay. So you’ve always worked in the background, office, paper, accounting, payroll.
4:12 | Alice:
Yeah.
4:13 | Danielle Boyle:
So you were admin at Derby before ABM. Did you find that was similar to the accounting jobs previously?
4:21 | Alice:
Yeah. Paperwork is paperwork, it’s all filed the same, just different things on it.
I feel like your brain has to work a certain way to deal with paperwork. I’m quite… anal. I’m very analytical. I like order, rules, and processes.
When audit comes, I love it. I love getting ready for it. It’s so sad, I know, but it’s clearly what I’m good at.
But it doesn’t matter what industry you work in, admin is all very similar.
4:56 | Danielle Boyle:
Do you find it different now you’re an ABM? Has the role and responsibility transitioned?
You’re based at Derby, which is quite far from a few of our main branches, Yorkshire, Lancashire, so you kind of stand your own a bit.
Do you feel you do more Assistant Branch Manager tasks now, or are you still kind of admin?
Because I’ve been to Derby, I’ve witnessed it, you are the brick to that building.
5:22 | Alice:
I don’t know.
So, now I’m officially the Assistant Branch Manager, but I think a lot of admins would admit they run branches in the background.
They’re not the face, but they make sure things are done. Processes.
If there’s a problem, generally people will come to me, not the Branch Manager.
So no, not really. I wouldn’t say my role has really changed.
5:49 | Danielle Boyle:
That’s quite good then, it’s not a massive change.
5:52 | Alice:
Now I can officially give orders and they have to be followed, rather than me just being bossy and saying, “Get this done.”
6:01 | Danielle Boyle:
I suppose that’s kind of like, if you were a male Assistant Branch Manager, they might not call you bossy. Or if you were a male admin, they might not call you bossy. But because you’re female, it’s like, “She’s bossy.”
6:10 | Alice:
Yeah.
6:12 | Danielle Boyle:
So now you can officially tell them off.
6:14 | Alice:
Exactly. I’ve got permission.
6:16 | Danielle Boyle:
Ashley, you were at Oldham, which is our Western region, and Wakefield is our East. Two different branches, two different sizes, two different clientele.
How have you found that transition?
6:31 | Ashley:
It’s strange, the difference, like, 40 miles. Dialect, everything.
Even products, they’ll call something completely different, and I’m stood there like a newbie going, “What?”
A bread cake is a bread cake, not a…
6:47 | Danielle Boyle:
We’re not having this argument again.
6:49 | Ashley:
It’s nothing.
But yeah, a lot of the customers I knew. I’d either gone to school with them, or they were my customers from B&Q, or they were my dad’s friends.
It’s quite a small town, a lot of people know everybody.
And the products are the same, but what I had to focus on was getting the system right. After 15 years of using one computer system, one till, doing it one way, I can still remember plasterboard barcodes off the top of my head from typing them in that many times.
Switching to Howarth’s system is completely different, the way people get served, they get ticketed in the yard. Every function is different, and it was more getting used to that side, rather than the building trade.
It picked up reasonably quickly. I did about 8–10 months in the shop before I moved into Internal Sales, and again that was different, sat at your desk, phones, orders, quotes.
Then coming up to Wakefield was a culture shock because it’s such a big branch. We’ve got a high number of staff, and everybody’s got a role.
It took me a couple of weeks to find out what my role as an Assistant Branch Manager was, because I wasn’t needed for admin, we’ve got a fantastic admin, Natalie. We’ve got Destiny and the team who run the counter. We’ve got eight other internal sales.
There’s me and Martin, and I was a bit like, “I don’t know where I’m going. I don’t know what I’m doing. What’s my job?”
So I spent the first few months getting to know the people and the customers.
And Yorkshire men are very different than Lancashire men. They really are.
8:23 | Danielle Boyle:
I think depending on what kind of Branch Manager you have, it depends what kind of Assistant Branch Manager is needed, what role you need.
8:33 | Ashley:
Yeah. Speaking to other Assistant Branch Managers, we all have different areas of focus.
Some focus on transport, others on processes.
That’s more what I lean towards, background reports: stock reports, why things are on the audit list, why orders are suspended, why something is still set to pick.
People who need training, what’s coming up.
It’s varied, but I’m still on the counter, I’m still answering phones, I’ve still got my own customers to look after, and I support Martin when he’s off.
It’s different every day. There’s no “this is your job role and this is what you do.”
And I love that.
9:40 | Danielle Boyle:
So, with all that said, have you faced any challenges being a woman in a male dominated environment?
10:02 | Alice:
I think we’ve both had very different environments.
I’m the only woman at Derby and I give as good as I get. I do have the biggest balls there.
But I’m almost looked after. I’m not on a pedestal, I’m one of the team, but they do look after me. And I think they’re all scared of me as well.
I’ve never had any problems with staff. And customers are respectful in Derby.
10:30 | Ashley:
Derby is slightly different.
I’ve been in the industry since I was 17. Being 17 around builders and customers, yes, that can be very disrespectful. They look at you like you haven’t got a clue.
They’ll bypass you and say, “No, I don’t want you to serve me, go and get me one of the lads.” Fine, I’m not going to bend over backwards to prove what I know.
Not so much anymore, and not necessarily at Howarth, but when I was younger, especially at TradePoint, I got it a lot more.
But like Alice said, I can hold my own. I was brought up by a strong mother and a strong father, anything my brother can do, I can do.
10:59 | Danielle Boyle:
I can imagine you naturally raise your bar to be level with them.
11:05 | Ashley:
Yeah, definitely.
11:07 | Danielle Boyle:
Do you see differences by age group? Older generation of customers, younger generation?
11:14 | Ashley:
Yeah. The older generation can be, “Oh, you’re the receptionist, will you go and get me one of the salesmen?”
And if no one’s available, some of them will just stand and wait until somebody is free.
I can try to win them round, but if they don’t want to be served, they don’t want to be served.
But the younger generation are more equal. Times are changing.
You see younger customers sending girlfriends in, wives coming in, and they know what they need.
And I think seeing another woman in the branch gives them comfort. Because even now, if I walked into a branch that was solid men, I’d still find it intimidating.
12:07 | Danielle Boyle:
Have you seen an increase in female customers? Female trade customers?
16:49 | Alice:
Not necessarily in trade accounts, no.
There are a few female customers with accounts, but I haven’t seen a huge increase in that yet.
I’ve seen more retail women coming in for projects. Some say, “I’m not a tradesperson, it’s just this one project.”
But they’ve been confident, and if they haven’t been, they’ve asked for advice and we’ve helped.
And I do think sometimes men explain things in a way that comes across as condescending, even without intention, like mansplaining.
You can YouTube everything now. Some people still like that face-to-face conversation, but there’s a big market for contactless.
19:12 | Ashley:
I’m the opposite, I think I can do it myself.
I’ve built brick walls, plastered, put our own kitchen in, rendered a wall in the garden.
It looks fine to me, a professional might say it’s awful, but I pride myself on giving it a go.
20:25 | Danielle Boyle:
How do we make the industry more inclusive moving forward?
21:42 | Ashley:
Training, from a young age.
When I went to college, I saw more girls starting trade courses. But it can be intimidating for a 17 or 18-year-old girl to walk in and say, “I’m a bricklayer.”
Get them in early. Give them confidence.
Also training for our staff, recognising when someone’s uncomfortable and tailoring the conversation.
And show how diverse we are: not just timber and bricks. We do kitchens, decorating, start to finish.
Go into colleges. Careers days. Send reps or managers in. Give younger people all the options.
23:24 | Ashley:
We’ve got a lot of strong women in Howarth as well. Like Hayley, Branch Manager at Manchester, she inspired me.
The more women see women progressing into senior roles, it gives empowerment.
We now have women heading audit, HR, health and safety. Female category buyers. Finance.
And having female presence at bigger meetings and conferences matters, it normalises it.
25:13 | Alice:
Women approach things differently. You need both to be successful.
We’ve got emotional intelligence, empathy. We pick up on things that can be overlooked.
27:26 | Danielle Boyle:
And we have improved policies too, menopause policy, maternity, and also paternity improvements.
We now have female PPE and uniform that fits, and facilities like female toilets, which sounds simple, but it matters.
29:28 | Alice:
We had a sanitary bin in our branch for the first time last year. I’ve been there nine years, that’s the first time.
It’s changing.
30:25 | Danielle Boyle:
We also did the Women’s Network day, in 2022 and 2023, and we’re looking at another one this year.
There was some pushback, “why don’t we get a men’s day?”, but International Women’s Day isn’t a Howarth thing. It’s international. It’s celebrating women and achievements.
33:04 | Danielle Boyle:
So we’re at the end. Three quick-fire questions.
You both do the same job role, but very different branches and regions.
What are three tips you’d give someone doing your job role?
33:21 | Ashley:
A lot of coffee, we’ve got coffee machines in branches!
Now, three tips:
Voice your opinion. Don’t be scared to have an opinion because you feel it might not be the right answer.
Be fair, and take your time to think about things. Don’t make rash decisions.
33:56 | Ashley:
Sometimes women act on emotion, and it gets labelled differently. Men do it too, but it isn’t picked up the same.
You’ve got to find that line, thick skin helps, and the industry makes you tougher.
35:09 | Alice:
Lead by example.
Show up. Be there.
35:30 | Danielle Boyle:
What’s the biggest problem you face within your job role?
37:40 | Ashley:
Processes being followed right.
Everyone’s got their own way of doing things, and then there’s the right way.
With a big team, it’s getting everybody aligned, “just do it the right way.” It’s like chasing your tail.
38:05 | Alice:
Processes, definitely. You’re repeating yourself constantly.
Old school industry.
38:18 | Danielle Boyle:
And finally: have you got any life quote that you live by?
38:30 | Alice:
I honestly can’t say I do.
38:32 | Danielle Boyle:
Fair enough.
38:33 | Ashley:
Treat people how you want to be treated.
38:44 | Alice:
And for me: don’t tell me I can’t do something. I’ll show you that I can.
38:55 | Danielle Boyle:
Love that.
Thank you very much for sitting and talking to me.
39:03 | Alice:
Thank you.
39:04 | Ashley:
Thank you.
39:05 | Danielle Boyle:
Thanks to Paul for letting me sit in his seat. Thanks to you two for being here, I kind of made you be here, you didn’t really have a choice!
But you two have a great connection, and as I say, there are plenty of amazing women within the business.
Keep your eyes peeled for another female-focused podcast run by Alex, our Building Category Manager. She’s joined by two suppliers, Rebecca from Talasey and Lauren from Soudal.
And to keep up to date with everything Howarth and 1840 podcast related, make sure you follow us on all our socials.
Thanks for watching.
39:40 | [Music]